Hey, all you fish heads out there. My name is Smoke and Joe and I have some questions. Do you have fish?

Yeah.

Do you love your fish? Do you love your fish enough to buy them their own song?

Oh, yeah.

Who needs another castle for the tank when you can have a custom tune made for your favorite bin friend? It's easy. You tell me about your fish.

I have the best fish.

You pick a genre of music, I make you a song. From metal to Irish bulk, from EDM to funk to punk. I'd love to make a song for you. Visit www. Dot smoke and joonline.com to fill out your inquiry today. That's www dot SM okinjoe online.com today.

So I found out a couple of days ago that I made a couple of people mad on yelp. And I just wanted to come here and I wanted to let you guys know that if I offended you in any way, I honestly, honestly don't give a so fuck you, your mom. I don't mean to say things that are hurtful or offend people, but if I say something and you're offended by it, I just want you to let you know that you're dumb. Take that for what it's worth. I had people that messaged me directly just to let me know that they're going to unfollow me. I just want them to know that. bitch, I can't even read. So I don't even know what your message even says. So again, if I offended you in any way at all, do something if you're bad. So if you do hate me in any way, I just want to let you guys know that I still got 15% off the entire store with promo code Aquariumguys at checkout. Joe Strumcheck.com got one given.

Hey, guys, just one last thing before we start the podcast. Please submit your stories to the aquariumguyspodcast.com email address. It's on the bottom of the website. Aquariumguyspodcast@gmail.com. We need your stories for story time for we want to do it by user submission. We're going to pick our favorites. Please send them in any format, written video we need them. Let's kick that podcast.

Welcome to the Aquarium Guys podcast with your host, Jim colby and Rob dolson.

All right, guys, welcome to the podcast. Don't make fun of me, Jimmy. If anybody's made fun of, it's you for eating all the Mick ribs.

Oh, I love Mick ribs. rib sandwiches. They are wonderful.

So now that we have a full review, how many mic ribs did you finally get through before you said no? Not until next year.

I had mc ribs three days in a row, and then I had an upset tummy, and then I had to quit. I spent some time in the restroom.

Got you.

Yeah.

Well, now that we got the off topic stuff, there we go.

We got that covered. That's great.

Today we are excited to have Joe Adawak joel Adawak. I was so focused on his last name, I got his first name wrong. Go, Me.

You suck.

Joel, thanks so much for coming. Actually, I got what?

You got them both wrong.

You got them both wrong.

Well, you know what?

I think Joel should introduce himself.

Joel Antoviak.

Joel and koviak. Thank you, Joel. So, Joel, again, you have a very diverse background. You've been in the fish hobby a long time. We'll get into an interview, but you're here today to talk and give us more information on Killy Fish. So we are super excited to have you and thank you for coming, man. Taking the time out of your evening.

Pleasure to be here.

So this week for news, I was informed by my roommate because Jimmy and I have been very busy these last few days. Apparently, the last story we talked about petco and petsmart, we were positive towards them. We were defending them from a guy that was suing them for emotional distress, for killing his own fish. So this week, we have to shit on them a little bit because they decided to change their traditional logo, which was like red letters. And then it had the two animals, Rough and meow or mew or whatever.

They call it, mews the cat's names.

Right? And that was always their logo as the cat and dog and the petco logo. So now they decided to reinvent the petco brand, and all they did was remove the cat and dog and make it to, like, a dark, almost black comic sands font. It's horrible.

It is horrible. I will say that.

In fact, there's so much distaste that they even had to put on their Twitter page that Rough and meuse are here to stay just to try to, like, rebuttal the negative feedback from the logo.

Why don't they add a fish and a lizard and everything else? And a bird?

No, they should just put, like, half broken bag of dog food if they're going to show what they sell most.

You're terrible.

So certainly check that out. We always bring the scandalous topics to you here on the Aquarium Guys podcast. Also, we got a review. Five star says hello. I go by Big Cab. I think that's what he calls his name. Says, I've found your show this week. I drive truck over the road and have really enjoyed the show. Makes day go by a lot better with the info and laughs. Keep it up. The chemistry that you all have with each other and guests makes really great show. ps. Make sure dr.

Fish keeps coming, and we have been very blessed. seacrest Farms allows dr Fish to come on. We've had him on, what, four times now?

Yeah. And still going to have them keep coming. People always have questions.

People line up with their questions and he answers them, and he gets about 98% of them. He is fantastic.

Yeah. He even brought back some questions that he can't answer during the podcast.

Yeah, he does some research and comes back, but he has a tremendous amount of knowledge that he wants to share with everybody. So it's been really fun.

It's basically trying to stump the doctor at this point. We're having too much fun with it. So we'll keep him coming for sure. So also, we've been working hard. We are now in a new studio for the podcast, and I don't have the last chord is coming through Amazon to set up the camera. Otherwise we'll be on twitch Tvacquariumguys, and we put a lot of hard work and effort. We stole a table from your ex wife, drilled some holes in it.

Yes.

And now it looks kind of professional does.

And I'm going to return it when we're done with it in a few years.

Right.

Whenever this podcast is over, we're just going to throw it in our lawn and put, like, a free sign on it.

There we go.

It says on fire.

Yeah, it is. meg's wife always trying to have a little fun.

All right, so we got a submitted question this week. It says on here, Dr. Fish or anyone else who has an answer. So this is from John. I bought two actually, I'm going to fold this up because I'm blind. I bought two koi angels that ended up pairing and spawning several times. I got them about two years ago. The female ended up dying unexpectedly. I added one more angel fish to the tank. It was smaller and jagged, a fin on the top, which I thought could be fin rot or just damaged from finnipping. It came from a very crowded tank at the local fish store. Many others at the store look similar, so I didn't think much of it. Shortly after adding the fish, the male Koi started to lose its color as if it was stressed orange. faded blue eyes turned white, and the tail and the top fins looked ripped with vertical white streaks that showed up. I treated with Melafix for several weeks, and nothing changed. I now realize this treatment is bs.

Melafix?

Well, if you leave the lights on, yes.

I have fed metroplex mixed in bloodworms for a week, several times. I treat it with salt tablespoon and a half for seven days. 100% water change. In a homemade quarantine tank. The fish appears to eat and act normal, like nothing's wrong. However, the fins have never receded past where they were in the picture. I'm starting to think that it's not finrott and maybe something else. The fish gets really red near the base of the fins and sometimes worse than others. I have attached two pictures. Seen any issues on this? So, Jimmy, I'm going to blow this up for you. I know that you love angels, so I'm not seeing a ton of issues. Besides, like, it's clear here. And then you can see the whiteness on the fins. And this one. You can see more pink.

You want to send me one?

I think that's the natural coloration of the fish there, to be honest with you. But it's hard to tell. Usually when I see something a matter, it's usually in the snout, and the snout looks pretty clear, actually.

I don't know, it's really hard to tell. I can try to zoom in on some stuff, but I'm going to send it to Adam and I'm also going to send it to our guest for assessment. Just give me one moment here. But otherwise do you ever see those almost like blonde koi? Angel fish get color change over time. I mean, sure, when they get old, they fade, but that quickly, it makes a guy wonder for sure.

I don't see anything wrong with this.

Coy it's not a whole lot of anything for sure. There, I see. I'm just now sending it to Joel. Maybe Joel has some answers for us.

Insight.

I don't see anything wrong with it.

The second picture is definitely a little bit more pink, but nothing that normally you'd think is like a bacterial infection.

No, usually there'd be streaks.

Yeah, you'd see streaks and it'd be a lot more defined. It wouldn't just be like a blushing of pink. So the Melafix worked.

Tada.

Joel, how do you feel about mela fix? You like putting vic vapor rub on your fish?

I've never used it. Adam is pretty just trying to keep my fish healthy.

Well, that's a better plan. Adam believes that if you keep the substance away from light, that you'll have a better reaction. And they do put it in a deep, dark blue bottle where not a whole light can perpetrate it. And if you do take the light down on your tanker off, you are reducing stress for your fish. So I don't know, there's something to be said about that. Even without mela fix.

The only thing I would say about this is when you bring in new fish, sometimes it does stress out your old fish, but you really need the quarantine before you put it in your tank, especially if it was a crowded tank from your pet store. I mean, you get a lot of finn dipping, you get a lot of bad edges on your fish and stuff. So if you got them this far, I think you'll be just fine. I would just keep an eye on them and stuff. I do not see anything.

Really, honestly, the best explanation I could have for this without missing information is it looks normal. Fish after they've been breeding consistently for that long can change color just because they're getting out of breeding cycle. Breeding colorations are much different than when they're not breeding. And angel fish definitely do change color with water, changes in mood, and they'll.

Get stressed out too. When you introduce somebody new to the aquarium, new person in town, people don't really realize that angel fish are very territorial when it comes to large sizes.

So as far as feedback and all that, that has kind of caught it up for this week. Jimmy, any other news for you?

No. I was down in Plymouth, Minnesota last week, stopped and saw our friend Joe at Joe Shrimpshack. What a wonderful store. If you guys have not stopped there, you need to he also ships a couple of days a week, and he's saying the shipping is going very well even in this cold temperature. So make sure that you visit his site and purchase your shrimp there. He had very reasonable shrimp there. My wife and I came home with a couple of bags of shrimp of stuff that we didn't have yet, and came home with some fish food, and we sure had a great time.

Didn't he have something that you didn't think that you'd ever see, Jim?

I never thought I'd see a $5,000 shrimp, and I saw three of them, they exist. And I said, what's your most expensive shrimp here? He goes, These right here.

How much?

He goes, $5,000, but they're not for sale. They're just starting to breed. And I go, how do you sleep at night? He goes very well. These shrimp were in a small tank, and they were absolutely gorgeous. I'd never seen them before. I wish I would remember what kind they were. But if you're looking for some high end shrimp, joe has got everything from low end I shouldn't say low end, you got everything from the average stuff all the way to the high end.

You got to give him a call and he'll tell you the stuff that isn't listed on his website.

That's right, give him a caller.

Was that the aquatic experience a couple of years ago? And there were several thousand dollars shrimps on display there?

Yeah, the people that are into it are into it, seriously. And for myself to spend that kind of money on a shrimp, I would lose my mind, honestly.

So I work as an extremely part time rep for cobalt aquatics. Right. And when anybody mentions Joe in the office, they're like, Joe, that sounds familiar. They're like, oh yeah, that's that guy at Global Pet Expo that flew a drone into somebody's display. I'm like, oh, poor Joe.

That is Joe.

Poor Joe.

Joe loves his drones.

Again, thanks again for coming on the podcast, buddy, to kick the kick the interview off, we always got to ask you, where did you get in this hobby from? What encouraged you to participate and what kept you in it?

Well, I said when we were talking pre show, that my father was an insurance justice and had a fire at a pet shop, and he ended up coming home with a 20 gallon old metal frame tank. It was back in the early seventy s, and that kind of got our whole family into fish. And I'm pretty much the only one that really stuck with it. Used to read the old innis book, Exotic Aquarium Fishes, which is what we used to refer to it as the Bible. And the color plates in the back got me really interested in. So I looked up the American Killy Fish Association that saw ad in Old Tropical Fish hobbyist Magazine. Ended up joining that back in 1976 and a few years later I was in high school. My high school biology teacher is a member of the Greater Pittsburgh Aquarium Society. So I got into the Greater Pittsburgh Aquarium society at that point.

Wonderful. I'm trying to think an insurance guy that was addressing a house fire and he brought home an aquarium. Was he with the fire department? Like, oh quick, save that fish.

It was a pet shop fire, right?

So taking live animals out of a fire. As an insurance broker, I got to say your dad must have been the best insurance broker of all time.

He'd come home with some interesting things sometimes, that's for sure.

So what are some of the expertise or things that you've done throughout your hobby that are of note? Again, you came on tonight to talk about killy fishes and you do go to aquarium clubs, that to speak. But you know, what are some of your expertise underneath your belt?

As I said, I got into killy fish early. I was only 14 when I first joined the Aka. I've also had a few years worth of breeding angel fish. I've always been into cichlids. I always love to watch the cichlids care for their eggs and fry. It's always interesting then getting into the when I got into the clubs, talking to other people about the common interest was always an exciting thing to do.

Now you also mentioned that you were running a pet store or owned a pet store of your own as well.

I did own my own shop for a couple of years back in the early ninety s. And before that I worked in a couple of shops as well.

Definitely a diverse experience to get started on the topic at hand about killy fish. Most people hear kilifish and get really intimidated about a lot of different names or that they live so long. So what are your most intriguing favorite parts about keeping killy fish since you have clearly a long background in doing so?

Well, I think one of the most interesting things is annual killy fish. They go into what's called a diapaused phase. When the eggs go into a diaper phase or a resting phase, so it allows them to survive a long period in basically dirt, dried out, pond bottom. Almost all kilifish eggs do have the ability to do that, just the non annuals out.

So when you say annual, it seems very much like a plant. Like there's perennials that live for whatever lifespan they have annuals. Literally they're up for the one year or the summer how are their life cycles in the wild versus these annuals in captivity?

Depending on where they actually are found, some only live for a few months in the wild, the eggs hatch, the rains come, the eggs hatch, the fry grow up. There are some species, furzeri, for example, that have been known to be sexually mature within two weeks and start laying eggs. Other species live for a much shorter time and dry season is a lot longer. And their eggs might take seven, eight, nine months to incubate. Then the rains come, then and those fish grow even faster.

That long to incubate.

That's incredible.

And I just thought that they're incubated because you always think of like egg scatterers, just leave them alone in there. Like a chicken incubates the egg with heat. So it just takes natural environment or natural temperature swings to incubate this or how does that work?

Yeah, depending on what temperature they're incubating. At home fish room, you can change the incubation time for annuals from several months. There are some species that you can hatch in six to eight weeks. If they're incubated at warm enough temperature or they're incubated at a cooler temperature, they might take four to five months to incubate.

Just the thought of incubation is so formal. Also having these killy fish, you said that they just dry out in river beds. So you always think of keeping fish number one, there's lie bears. You always think of keeping fish eggs either fully oxygenated or certain temperatures. And then you hear about like egg fungus. How in the world do these eggs really make it through that? Do they just lay right before it dries to try to preserve the eggs? Or they're just naturally more resilient than other fish eggs?

Well, normally the fish, the achilles that live in rivers don't normally try out, but there's a lot of temporary ponds that form in rainforests. When the rainy season comes, those are where the annuals generally live. And as soon as they're sexually mature, they just start laying eggs in the mud because they don't know how long the wet season is going to last. They don't know when the next rain is going to come or if the last rain was the last rain was the last rain.

So you said they lay them in the mud. Maybe that's the secret of trying to protect the eggs. So I'm assuming these fish, do they dig or just kind of rustle and loose mud?

Yes, depending on the species. South American annuals tend to dive deep into the mud, whereas African species tend to just kind of flow into the mud a little bit. And the eggs only get buried under maybe a half inch, three quarters of an inch of mud in South America, two, three, four inches deep, the eggs go.

So after these eggs are essentially laid, they dry. How long do most of these breeds last? I'm just thinking of this in the collection thing. Like, Jimmy always talks about how fond he wasn't Sea monkeys. This is a real life Sea monkey moment. I don't understand why people didn't market this better, because I still feel like killie fish are very a niche deal for most aquarists, and it shouldn't be. But how long are they kept dry that they can still be used at a future date?

Well, I've actually had some people that just a more recent experience. Somebody told me that they had just hatched some eggs that had been dry for like, 14 or 15 months, and they got some fry out of them, so they can be tough. I tried to hatch some eggs that I just found. I was cleaning up my fish room. They were about a year and a half old. Nothing hatched out of them, though. I didn't have the luck.

So you have about a year expiration date at most, and even then, you're probably not going to get a full hatch rate out of them.

They tend to have varying incubation times just because when the dry season is over and the restraints come, that might not necessarily be the actual start of the rainy season. Some of the eggs will hatch out, but then the little puddle or a temporary pool will dry out again and fry are gone. But you still have some more eggs that are left in the mud that haven't hatched out. So it's kind of a way of protecting the species into the future, having various incubation times.

That's a way of thinking about it. Because you always think of fish scattering eggs. You see a few hundred eggs and they're always trying to vary each for survival rates. Never thought of incubation times as being another mechanic for survival rates. That's fascinating. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this because, again, I've done killy fish eggs, but I've never harvested them on my own. I've hatched them and went through their life cycle, and that was it. I didn't re harvest them and preserve them myself. So what is the best method, number one, to encourage killy fish to spawn and dirt? I see a lot of forms that use peat. Is that still common?

Oh, yeah. That's the most common way of doing it, using just regular peat moss. Or a lot of people use the jiffy Seven peat pellets. That's what I've been using recently, actually. A good method to do to make the peat pellets grow. Somebody just shared on the Aka Facebook page, instead of sterilizing boiling the peat, to sterilize it, they just boil water and pour boiling water over the peat pellets, sterilize it, and then they grow at the same time. In my limited experience in doing it that way, pete pellets grow a heck of a lot faster than normal. We have a lot of peat moss available in a much quicker fashion.

And when you talk about these peat pellets, those are the disks, essentially, that people put in water. They expand and that's where you start seeding out normal plants. It's those same peat pellets and those are normally aquarium safe. I thought they had go ahead.

You got to watch some of them have fertilizer in them, so you got to wash make sure you get the ones that don't have fertilizer.

So you ever get them to spawn? I'm assuming you have to have the peat loose for them to spawn in the tank. Or do you rip them or just put it in there and they'll find a way in the bag?

Yeah, no, I'll break up the pellets and collect the peat into. I usually use little ivy bowls you can get for like a bucket at michaels or other craft stores. Those are good for most of your African annual fish. The flowers and then I'll use like lantern glass so they're a little bit taller. And they still have the rounded edges for the divers. So I'll put a lot more peat moss in there. They can dive in and helps the rounded sides help to contain the peat in the container so it doesn't go flying all over the tank.

So after they go in, do you witness them spawning and will they continue to spawn or do they spawn one time and then that's it?

Kelly fish. There's a couple of ways you can go about it. Normally kelly fish will lay a few eggs every day for an extended period, which is the main reason that you don't see them in pet shops most of the time because they're very hard to mass produce. Because they lay a few eggs a day as opposed to sick leaves over lay several hundreds or 1000 eggs all at one time. They'll lay their eggs over a period of time. Normally with the annuals, you're going to collect the peat moss usually a week to week or so, a week at a time. And then the eggs will pretty much most of the time they'll incubate and they'll hatch at the same time. You get a uniform hatch.

Do you let them dry out first or do you just go ahead and take that dish and put in a different aquarium and let them hatch?

You absolutely let them dry out. The eggs are tough. You can squeeze out the excess water from the peat moss. I'll take the ivy bowl to peat moss through a fine mesh net, squeeze it out, then I'll break it up and let it air dry for a few hours before I store it in a plastic bag. And on the bag you note the name of the fish that you have the eggs from and the date that they are collected and date you expect to hatch those eggs.

Can they take freezing at that time? So when you're shipping eggs in the winter, do you have to put a heat pack with them or no, it's.

Probably a good idea to use a heat pack depending on what part of the winter you're shipping in. It's actually just better just not to ship it all during the winter. These are tropical fish and the eggs pretty much need warmer temperatures.

Good to know.

So how long do you have from laying before they hatch on their own, or will they even or they require being dried?

Oh, the annuals will require a dry period. Non annual fish, you just keep them, incubate them in water and they'll hatch in ten to 1417 days, depending on what the temperature is. The annuals, like I said, you can vary the incubation time from a few weeks up to a few months for some species, and then you can get the mold hatch at once.

What do you keep the eggs in for maximum life expectancy or best care? Is it some sort of, like, ziploc baggy or is there instructions to pack them?

I just use a regular fish bag and I'll pack it with an air pocket like you would if you're bagging fish, and then I just store them in a warm area. I usually just keep all of mine in a styrofoam fish box and check it every couple of weeks to see what eggs are due to be hatched and go from there.

How do you check eggs due to be hatched? Do they turn a color? Are they just dry enough?

Well, with annuals, it's tough. You got to find the eggs first. I usually just take it on faith that there are eggs in the bag. I try to check, make sure there are some before I seal the bag up. When I first collect the peat, you can see the clear eggs. Then once they start developing, it's a lot harder to find them in the peat. But if you can find the eggs, you look for the iris on the eye of the embryo. If it's like a golden iris, it's usually time for the eggs to hatch, put them in some water, and hopefully they'll hatch out in a few hours.

Now, when you put the peat moss and the eggs in the bag, is the peat moss still a little bit.

Moist, about the consistency of pipe tobacco, sometimes a little bit drier.

So you squeeze the moisture out of there pretty much, and then let it air dry for a couple of hours. And then you put it in the bag and seal up the bag and put it in the box.

Some people actually use an incubator and set it at certain temperatures. I don't have an incubator, so I use a styrofoam fish box as my incubator.

And what type of success rate do you have? If you have 100 eggs, you get 50%. Do you get half or you get more?

Typically with the non annuals, you can count the eggs a lot easier because you're picking them out of a mop and putting. Them in water, so you can actually see the eggs. But when you have pete, if you're able to count 100 eggs, you probably have a lot more than that in there. In my experience, I've gotten about maybe 30% to 40% success rate.

That's incredible. So when these fish eggs are in the peat moss in the bag, you have to worry about fungus. I mean, I know, like with angel fish eggs, and you get one that funguses and it spreads all over the place, you really don't have to worry about fungus, do you?

A dry environment, maybe you wouldn't have to.

I think the acidity of the peat moss keeps the fungus from spreading. If there are some bad eggs in.

The bag, that's incredible. So that makes things a little bit easier. I've had some thousand egg spawns that were great and didn't put enough methylating blue in there, and a few eggs just destroyed the whole batch, whereas from the same pair previously, I'd gotten a 90% hatch rate. So that is kind of interesting that the peat moss does that for that.

Yeah, I'm not sure if it is actually the peat moss or not, but I mean, I'd ever see like a bunch of eggs fungus together inside the peat moss bag? And then I've had that experience that you've had with Angel Fish with the whole batch going bad from a couple of eggs that the fungus wasn't contained to.

So how do you categorize killy fish that are not annual? Because we heard of annual killies. What do we call the other kilifish?

I call them non annuals. The annual killy fish will live a few months, up to maybe eight or nine months in the wild. But the non annuals live in more permanent bodies of water ponds and streams, and they'll live several years.

Any behavior in the tank differences between annuals and nonanuals that are starkly different?

I don't know about behavior. I think most of the annual fishes have a stockier body, so they can plow into the soil, and most of the non annuals are more streamlined. There are some stocky buddied non annuals, the pup fishes and such, but for the most part, most of them are more streamlined bodies, and they can cut through moving water a lot faster.

I've also heard a rumor that a lot of annuals can be more aggressive than non annuals. Is that true?

Yeah. I've seen where one male noso will take up shop above the ivy Bowl and kind of protect that territory from any other males in the tank. If I have a large enough group, I'll put two or three ivy bowls in the tank, the peat moss in it, so that each male can have its own territory around the ivy Bowl.

And you say ivy Bowl, how big are these bowls that you keep them in? I mean, when you're doing an annual, I always try to treat it like a different other fish, but I'm assuming the environments that these killer fish are, they can handle a lot of size, variation, and environment. What do you recommend keeping annuals in?

Well, it depends on how many fish I have. If I just have one pair of tree, I would use a five gallon tank for most species. Some of the larger ones, you can use a 1015 20 gallon tank, but most of your smaller noho keep safely in a five gallon tank. Some people even breed them in two gallon tanks. I like to give them a little bit more space, give some space for the female to run around if she needs to get a break from the male. There are some larger ones, like the Heraldius and Athleteous Species of South America get four, five, six inches, you need to put them in a bigger tank.

Did you just say four or five to six inches? Is that an annual species?

Yeah, there's a species, malay McKay a couple of years ago at the Aka convention, there was somebody brought in a male that was about eight or nine inches long and have a female for it. So he's trying to get it to get it matched up with somebody.

How in the world does that work? That must be incredible. Growth rate. Like, you hatch one of those species out in, what, three days? It's already enrolled through high school and drinking its first beer.

Some of those species will grow very fast. Like I said, there's no sobranchius furzer. I have been known to spawn within two weeks. I've bred callow panchax, oxidant, alice, the golden pheasant kelly, and they're sexable and laying eggs in four weeks. If you feed them enough, you feed them three or four times a day, and you do water changes. You can get them to grow really fast and start spotting very soon.

So one of my favorite things to do that I'd love to do is I love to go to the different conventions and stuff. How many different species would I be able to see at your convention, how many you normally have there on display?

At the Aka convention, there's usually a good I would say probably about 200 species, most of them in the show. And the Aka also has what they call the New and Rare Species Committee, where they bring in new or rare fish, usually from breeders in Europe. They usually have about 30 or 40 different species on display that are available in the auction from the New and Rare Species Committee, and they have about 150 different species on display in the show itself.

So as a beginner and I would go to a convention, what would be a good starter fish for me to try, and what price range would I enter into that?

There are a lot of good starter kelly fish. Best ones, probably the old Golden Wonder kelly that you can find in petco and PetSmart and other. Your mom pop shops. Funny little panchaks. Gardener eye or gardeners. Kelly there's a lot of different locations that went around. Those are very easy to keep and breed.

I've had these males now, like, a year and a half, and I don't know if they're supposed to be an annual or if they are long term gardener.

Yes, gardener eyes are non annual, so that lives up to three years or so. The most popular achille fish is probably the achille, the orange version of it. Orange liar tail, kili afioca in Australia. Those things are very popular, even though they're very common and easy to breed. If you have nice pairs of them, even in a regular aquarium Society auction, they'll go for 30 or $40 for a pair.

Yes, they're very beautiful. We've got them pulled up right now on the Google thing.

They're not far off pattern from the garden eye that I have, but they definitely have more robust tails and side fins. It's very, very beautiful.

The liar tail, too. Lot better extensions on the tail.

Oh, nice.

Beautiful.

And they're like white tips. It's gorgeous.

So what's the rarest of the kili fish that you've seen? Like, is there some that somebody snuck out of Africa or South America in the dirt, in their shoe, and then they just kind of smashed the mags there? I've heard stories, but I wanted to confirm with you that may or may not happen.

I've heard stories. I don't have first hand knowledge of it happening. But like I said, I've heard the stories, too. There are some fish that I've never seen. There are several hundred species of killing fish. So there are some species I've never seen I'd like to get. But probably the hardest to come by. Fish that is in the hobby is probably the saberfin. Kelly terranato's deliciouss. Things go for a fortune every time at the Aka Convention. And when I say fortune, I'm talking hundreds of dollars, not 50, $60. And it's a small fish, too, about an inch and a half.

You call it, sailor? finn killy saber.

Saber fin kind of look like angel fish, but the body is small and more elongated if you always try to pay for it. Very cool.

Now, when something that comes for sale, do they sell them as trios or as pears?

Usually you're going to see pairs for sale, like aqua bid. Usually in the Aka convention, they have to be shown in pears, and they're usually put in the auction in pairs. There's also some shows around the country where they have box sales, so that's up to the breeder how they want to sell them. If they have an excess of females, they'll sell trios. They have excess of males, they'll sell reverse trios.

It's not one of those scenarios where you want to have less males just for the sake of harassment, like, say, Guppies.

Yeah. Usually if you want to group spawn two or three males to four, five, six females, especially with annual fish. That's the way I'd like to do it. The best. If I can get a hold of multiple heirs or trios of fish, that's the way I do it. It's hard to come by more than one or two pairs of fish and getting extra females and stuff, too.

So when you hatch these, is it any different for the fry on how you feed them? Is it very much brine shrimp related? Or is there some secret sauce food that you would use just for killie fish?

I've always used newly hash made shrimp. I found that to be the best. Some of the fish, such as the clown killy, the fry are extremely small. They might need infusoria, but with a fish like that, that's a fish that's not too aggressive. And if you have them in a tank that has a lot of plants in it, a lot of the fry will survive in the tank and take cover amongst the plants. They get enough food, microscopic foods, before they can eat baby fried shrimp.

So essentially, if you're doing that, you want yourself an established tank. You want to go up for at least a couple of weeks, a few weeks. That way you have microbacteria for the fish to somehow find food on.

Yes, I'm infusoria. And other microscopic organisms. Live plants are teeming with microscopic organisms. So that's a great environment for something like the clown killy, which is actually a very popular and pretty common species you can find sometimes called a rocket killy.

I know you're going to kill me for this, but I need to be honest with you, Joel, as a killy advisor, I've done killy fish in the past. Again, those species I told you about on hand right now, I do enjoy them. Definitely not an expert by any means, but there's definitely so many varieties. And I failed myself to really get deep into annual achilles, and I've made it a goal to get into them because I have actually friends, local that want to do them with me and what I told them. And again, he's part of the Aka achille expert. I told him that what I want to do. And this might be a terrible idea that will anger some of my listeners, but you remember that time when you were a kid in the bathtub and your mom gave you those little pellets and you put in the tub and they grow into a toy, like a sponge toy or something else, and they dissolve in the tub? Essentially what I want to do, I want to get a bunch of assorted annual killy eggs in an established tank and essentially put a few eggs in and see what in the world I get and have it be like my competition on trying to identify the species of killies that I'm able to hatch. So that's what he's doing for my Christmas present. He's getting an assortment of hardy annuals for me together and hatching them together to see what I can find and relive my childhood. Now what's the risks in doing that? And why should someone do it or do not do it.

Depending on what types of annuals you're dealing with. If you're talking about doing no sobranchius, good luck identifying the females. Males you should be able to identify, but the females are almost all identical. There are a few that have a couple of black spots here and there but for the most part all your noto granchous. Females look the same as just the.

Same as the males or as the.

Same as other kilifish, the same as other species of nothos. There's great sexual dimorphism as far as color is concerned. kilifish females are generally drab, gray, brown. Some of them will have a few spots here and there with the males. The males are strikingly colored and they display these colors on their fins and their bodies when they're trying to attract the females to drive them into the dirt. But males, not those a lot of them look significantly different that you'll be able to identify the males, but the females look alike. Male, no branchesus for COVID, looks the same as a female, nothal ranchus for COVID, looks the same as a female, nothal ranchius palmquisti and same as a female and so on.

Will they cross breed?

Some of them will, yeah. Or they'll try anyway.

Okay.

Is it one of the scenarios like you get a mule and they can't breed after the fact?

Yeah, I think most of the time that is the case. If you are lucky enough to get fry from the hybridization, chances are the next generation is going to be nonexistent.

Do they ever cross breed to try to make new patterns and colors or is that just too risky and people want to keep them pure because there's plenty enough diversity in kilifish?

Some people will try to breed the different color collecting locations. When you get a pair of killy fish, a lot of times it will have a collection location associated with the name. And we do that because a lot of times in the future as the fish is studied further, it might turn out to be a different species altogether. So then you'll know that your guns arrived from one location is actually, we didn't know that what it was then. One of those deals. It's always best to keep the different locations and different color varieties separate.

Now we talked to you earlier off the air. You guys are from the Pittsburgh area. Your group is how many different species have you guys bred as a group? Have you bred everything you get your hands on or you stick with a few basic 50?

Well, I used to be in the Pittsburgh area. I haven't been there in a while, but I do still stay in contact with that group. And I do know that there's a lot of good breeders out there that do breed killyfish. One of the country's best breeders is Eric badrock and he's bred a bunch of different kilifish, but he pretty much specializes in catfish. In my club there's a couple of guys that overeat kilifish. There's not a whole lot available in our area. So generally either have to buy from an online source like the Wet Spot or Aqua Bid or go to the conventions or Killyfish show to be able to get different species.

So how often does the group meet and what goes on during a meeting? A lot of people have heard about these groups. They don't really know what happens, what goes on. And I mean, we've been involved with different groups and the continued education that you get and stuff. But what do you guys do? Do you get together and try to source different killies for each other or do buying and trading or what's a typical meeting like?

It depends on the club. My local Killy Fish Club is basically a social organization. We don't really have programs. Might have one every two years, have somebody come in and give a program or have somebody share a video program that they found on YouTube or something. But for the most part, my local Kelly Fish Club is a social group and we will breed and trade fish with each other. And with our annual picnic in the summertime, we usually try to find some breeders to just the club will buy fish from and put them in our auction in the summer picnic. So we get some new species in the area. Now. My local general club, we get afternoons and generally in normal times we'll get people coming from a long distance. So we get a lot of variation in what's available in our General club's auction.

I'm just imagining that after the presentation, like the Die Hard Killie Fish fans all go in the back corner. They all take a fish bag with some eggs, they put it in the middle of the table and they all play a poker round where winter takes all winter takes all.

Anti up, baby, anti.

Like, I'm going to raise you a couple of these gardener killings right there.

That's what you hope that somebody that can't play poker puts up his sabre.

Fish eggs.

Get some of them saber fish up there. Go high dollar. Come on now. We're just giving you ideas, Joel. I'm just saying, if you don't do it now, you should get on that. That would be a good poker match. Something post COVID.

I just don't know of anybody in the United States that has a Saberfin killy.

It's that rare.

Crazy.

Very rare. Some people have had it. It was available at the Aka Convention a few years ago. I don't know if the people that ended up with them, the people with the money, had any success breeding them. And of course we didn't have the convention this past year, so I don't know what's out there at the moment.

Yeah. Are these regulated by any governing body like cities or anything? So you can't bring them from Europe?

It will depend on the species. There are some species that are limited in trade. A lot of the ones that are limited you'll find on the Cares Preservation Society Priority list. You can look that up on Caresforfish.org website. It's an organization that works towards trying to keep fish that are in the hobby, established in the hobby and keep them established in the wild as well. There are some species that are on the list that not legal to even keep a lot of, especially native ky fish such as Chronic, these Bailey eye, couple of subspecies of that are on the list and you're not allowed to keep them without having a federal permit.

There's also local laws in some states because just they're native that prevent some of it as well. So certainly not only check those lists, but check your local area to see about native species like in Minnesota, not killing fish related. We just heard on one of our podcasts what we have to go through to keep sunfish. So make sure to check where they're sourced because a lot of killy fish come from North America.

Yes, there are mostly fungular species and a lot of the puff fishes that I printed on species, some of them are very nice looking fish, especially if you go collecting down in Florida. Your fungus simulator has some nice red orange fins on it, things like adenia zenica. It's got like a diamond shaped body and lots of iridescent flex on the sides. It's very attractive fish. Of course. The American flag fish jordan dell, Florida. That one, of course, is available in shops most of the time. There are actually a lot of good looking native killy fish as well as the South American and African.

Adam, you had a question.

Is the least killy fish the library in Kelly Fish, is that really considered a killie fish? I think it's hetero. I forgot the whole name.

Peter Andrea foremost. Yeah, it depends on who you talk to. Some of the scientists lump the live bears, the Pacific live bearers in with the killie fish group. There is definitely some overlap, but I personally don't consider it a killie fish. And most of your Breeders Award programs don't consider it a killy fish. They consider it a live bear. But there is some overlap, especially with the goodaans. There are some fish that are found in the desert Southwest that are very rare in the group. And Patrick Fees, you're not going to find any of them in the hobby. They're not in the hobby, but they look like gadayans. They're egg layers. So some goodaid people lump them in with a good dance and some killy fish people put them in with the killy fish. So it's like an overlap group. There are a couple of those types of groups that connect kilifish to other groups of fishes.

Interesting. So if you have those ones from the southwestern us. Is that a bad thing?

Adam, what do you have as far as I'm concerned, if you're doing well with it no.

Wait, I just realized even killyfish know the feeder guppy. memes.

True.

Adam is a guy in our podcast and always got something that he probably shouldn't have.

Yeah, most of the time it itches.

Or he knows a guy that has something that he probably shouldn't have, which is actually him.

We'll get his name out of me.

There we go. All right.

Speaking of feeder guppies, there are some killy fish that would love to have feeder guppies getting it big enough to swallow them.

Yeah, adam has this infatuation with ENDLER guppies, and we keep telling them they're feeder guppies. And we actually have some merchandise I'm wearing in the shirt tonight. And it says ENDLER and it's kind of crossed out. It says feeder guppies. But adam takes offense for that. But we don't care.

I do it's for his.

Little boys get interested in the hobby. They get a jack dempsey, and then they get a bag of little guppies and they put them together and they're like, oh, watch them disappear. Boom.

Sounds like my first marriage. She was a jack jesse.

And watch the bank account disappear. All right, so you mentioned before some species for beginners to try out. And again, we get a lot of questions on how I should try feeder cuppies, how I should try killy fish. And you mentioned a couple of different species, but they were non annual. So if someone was going to go out and try and they really wanted to try this annual, and they wanted to start essentially doing their yearly cycle and trying to breed them, keep them and keep a lineage going. What would you recommend for a really hardy go to easy to brood species?

Well, from africa, north of brinkiest, gunThere is the easiest of the african annuals to keep and breed a lot of kili fish. It's tough to get them to take prepared food. If you can get them to take frozen food, you're good. But with gunther eye, I have no trouble getting them to take pellets and flakes and stuff. So they're the easiest ones. They lay eggs. The eggs hatch in eight to ten weeks depending on temperature. Maybe a little bit longer depending on temperature. Fry or very easy to raise. From south america, the new world annual groups. Probably the easiest one would be the matildebias floyd eye chili fish. In fact, that was actually the first fish that I bred for vap points when I joined the pittsburgh club years ago. Annual killy fish.

How many species of killies do you have in bags right now?

In bags? I don't know. Seven or eight tanks, a lot more.

Now, Joel, do your buddies call you up and go, hey, I need a dime bag? Does that happen? Give me $10 worth of fish eggs.

Our bap program in the lancaster Club is a little different in that we try to make allowances for people that just like to keep one type of fish. So most vip programs will have a category for killy fish, and once you complete it, that's it. You just get points when you breed more killy fish. But we have the beginner's level in killy fish, and then we have an advanced level, then we have a master's level, and then we have an expert level. And basically, you just got to keep spawning more kilifish and harder kilifish advance to the other levels. So if you're only interested in, say, cyclists, we got African cyclists, we got new world cyclists, and you can get eight awards for just doing cyclists, as opposed to two awards that you might get in another club's vap program to.

Get the younger people interested in it. And you have a kind of a reward system there. That's what all this should be about. I mean, everybody needs to invite a young person to one of these shows, get their interest up, and we need to share all the information we can with the younger generation, because all of us old guys are getting old, and it'd be nice to see somebody step up and really take the bull by the horns.

You're making it sound like grandpa is going to invite you to the lodge and you're going to go get nude in the sweat lounge. It's a lot more fun than that. Jimmy, come on.

Did you do with your grandpa?

I miss you, grandpa.

Yeah.

Okay.

You need to close the door when you run the microwave. I've told you that 100 times.

But it keeps going in circles.

Jimmy that's right.

Well, Joel, just to go over the other details, most killy fish, what's the PH ranges? Are they all specific?

Yeah, it's kind of a misnomer. Most people say, oh, kilifish needs soft acid water, but that's not necessarily the case. Most of your apiocemians will take soft, acid water. A lot of your epiplatus will take them, but some of the epiplatus will take harder, slightly alkaline water. And there's even a species of killy fish that lives in Lake tanganika, so they go on a high PH in hard water for it. tanganyika killy fish that prickly tanganic anus the pupfish from southwest Us. Harder, more alkaline water. Even the fungulus species and the flagfish found around Florida and on the East Coast, a little bit harder, more alkaline water. South American annuals, typically softer, more acidic water. Depends on where they're found.

And as far as other diet, again, killy fish. Again, if you can feed live, do it. It requires brine shrimp for small sizes, of course, but is there any other I've even heard people use like the hakari first bites. Will they go for that kind of powdered substance? If you don't have or they had a bad batch of brine shrimp?

Some people have success doing it that way. I generally don't. Like I said, I try to do baby brine shrimp. Some people culture micro worms or walter worms. The fry will take those too after a couple of weeks. What I try to do is I'll take the prepared foods either some finely crushed flakes or the first bites from haikari or other fine foods. I'll put that on the surface of the water and then I will squirt some brine shrimp through that. So it kind of gets mixed in with the brine shrimp and they take it by accident sometimes. And then they learn that once that hits the water on top and the brine shrimp are coming through and they go right up to the top and start eating it. That's the way I transition them into flake food and dry foods.

That's actually a great idea.

You ate adam's night.

Yeah. It's a new way of thinking about it that I never would have thought of. To try to trick something that only eats live or even frozen food and try to trick it into eating prepared foods, that's actually a great one. Thank you.

I've been doing that for years now.

Is there any particular disease you have to worry about with kilifish more acceptable to ick or anything like that or do they normally stay pretty much solid?

Most of them are pretty hardy, but not a bronchius. Tends be susceptible to velvet. So typically they keep maybe a teaspoon per gallon, tablespoon per five gallon somewhere in that range of salt in the water to keep them from coming down with velvet. But for the most part, most of the kelly fish are pretty hardy.

I've also heard about a behavior altering fluke. I'm assuming this is never seen in captivity. It's essentially that I really can't pronounce the name, but you hear about this parasite that pops off of snails. The birds eat the birds drop into the water and they hit killies. And it's some weird cycle that evolves. snails killy fish and some shorebirds. I'm assuming we don't see those type of parasite issues in captivity when they're sold, especially because they are annuals. But do the non annuals? Do you ever hear some unique parasites happen within the trade?

Actually, that's one of the advantages of keeping killy fishes because you're typically going to get them, most of them in egg form, whether they're annual or not annual. You can ship on annual eggs too because they take a long time to incubate. Ten to 14 days or even longer. So typically you're going to have parasite free fish to begin with because you're starting with the eggs. I have not seen that in my experience.

So any other specialty thing that we need to know. About Kelly fish. As far as care or any trade secrets you'd like to share with the.

Class, there's a lot of different things that you can do. Like I said, you can do the permanent setup with a planted tank for the clown killies, and a lot of other Kelly fish will have success with them. One of the things that I've had a lot of success with is with some of the smaller fungulo panchecks, the gardener eyes, boring burg eye, fungulo panchecks, ocean eye. You don't think of using undergraduate filters anymore. They work great. When you're trying to breed those fish, you put a pair in a five gallon tank with an inch or so of gravel. I plant it up with some water sprite and they lay their eggs in the gravel, and the flow of water through the gravel keeps the eggs oxygenated and they develop very quickly. And then the fry gets sucked under the ground and gravel filter plate and they get thrown out right into the top layer where the water sprite is floating around so it's rich in infusoria, so they can start eating right away. And then when I have tanks like that set up for breeding, I will shoot some baby brown shrimp into the tank every day after the tank has been set up for a couple of weeks, after two to three weeks, you're going to start seeing fry just appear in the top. I've had success to the point where I would pull 100 fry out of the water spray at the top of the tank if I wanted to. One of the times when I wanted to save as many fish as I wanted. Lots of success with the gravel spawning type fish using underground filters.

Yes, it's even getting hard to find underground filters. I mean, you don't see them a lot, like, in pet stores anymore.

No, you don't. So I usually get them at auctions, and if I see them and people are like, underground filters, I can use that for I'm like, I know what I'm using it for. Anything from ten gallons on size on down, ten gallon is smaller. It was even hard to find underground filters for small tanks when they were common. So anytime I see it, I might scoop them up.

Consider the box check being like, yes, I'll take all of your old broken undergrabble tubes. I had a friend in Tennessee excuse me, Tennessee, West Virginia, and he got there was a closed down pet or closing down pet store. They were open for like 60 years, and he got these weird 15 gallon talls, and he's like, I don't know what to do with them. It's like, oh, they they're coming with undergraduate filters. Just use those and put them through and they work great. After literally all those many years of use, they still are intact. And they came with the brightest clown puke gravel I've ever seen. And yeah, as long as there's no cracks or seams or where fish can get down and get stuck and die, they're going to work. It's just one of those things where it even works better than longer than a sponge filter because at least the sponge may fall apart in the future. They're just bulletproof.

Yes, and a lot of people don't like to use them for planted tanks, but I've had a lot of success with them for planted tanks as well because nitrates are being developed right there in the root zone of the plants.

The only thing I've had is there are some species of like a thicker rooted crypt that actually broken a couple of undergraduate filters of mine. Other than that, I haven't had an issue where it just actually grew the root in the root, spread it apart and cracked it. I call that good growth.

That is.

Well, Joel, again, we appreciate you having on it's a huge topic, and I think one of the big things we didn't get into a lot is the Aka, the American achilles Association, and how it's really core about that. But I'm actually reaching out to the president of the Aka, so we'll certainly have a future episode on that for sure. But Joel, is there any last notes that you'd like to leave the class and encourage them to get into killies?

Yes, you can start out with some of the best looking fish are actually good beginners fish clown. Kelly is very attractive, the apexemian striatum sometimes. I have a friend in Canada that used to breed them and sell them at Christmas time to shops because they have a background of a green sheen with lots of red dots, rows of red dots on the side. And he used to sell them to pet shops this time of year and called them Christmas kelly's because it's a beautiful red, green, and yellow fish and it's also one of the easiest fish to keep and breed as far as Kelly fish are concerned, as well as the gardener eyes are always attractive and easy to keep. And the liar tails. Yes, you can start out with some very beautiful fish and get some experience and then work your way up to some of the more difficult species.

Wonderful. And is there any shoutouts? I know that you had some we talked about a little bit about some of the aquarium clubs you work with, but any particular shout outs?

Of course. The aquarium club. lancaster county is my home general club. The Mid Atlantic kilifish organization. If you're on the East Coast, we serve southern New Jersey, Pennsylvania, delaware, Maryland, and Northern Virginia. So if you're in the area, take a look at our Facebook page. Eventually we'll start meeting again when the pandemic is over. Hopefully that will be not too far in the distant future. And of course, I always like to give a shout out to my friends at Greater Pittsburgh Aquarium Society. Where I started.

And the last shout out goes to the underground killy Fish poker league that we're all starting tonight.

There we go.

If you have a pair of SABRIN killies, you can come in. Andy up anti out boys.

We'll do a lot of drinking before we start doing that.

There might be cash mixed in illegally. I don't know.

I'm going to get into these because I've always wanted to learn about kelly's and just never taken the time, so this is actually pretty good.

If adam's inspired, I'm inspired. I can't wait to try my childhood dream of throwing stuff in and watching stuff grow.

They used to sell instant fish in comic books. It was just usually his, nothabranchius gunther eye moss in the water. And you had fenced and fish swimming around.

Literally. They used to sell instant fish. I got to look this up now before we leave.

I've never heard of this before years ago. I don't know if it's still going on now, but I know I used to see that in my, you know, usually right next to the sea monkeys.

I'm not oh, here it is. Sure enough, sea. Also sea monkeys and ant farm history. Instant fish was conceived by the whammo toy company in the early 60s. Instant fish were a species of African kili fish. And again, the one you mentioned laid eggs in the mud to start the dry season. whammo had the idea of selling chunks of mud substitute with eggs inside of it. Once taken home, they put it in container, water would be added, and the eggs would soon hatch. I need to find one of these old packages online. This is now my new mission instant fish. Oh, here's the advertisement. Jimmy, I found it. It looks just like the sea monkey craze. dude, look at that.

If they still sell them.

Oh, I got to save this image.

To put that on our website.

All right. Well, Joel, thanks again for coming on. We really appreciate you. And for those who are listening, if you like what you hear and you want to support the podcast, go to quorumguyspodcast.com. In the bottom of the website, we have information where you can either donate a couple of bucks, you can support our sponsors, or even better yet, go to our merch store and get some feeder guppy t shirts.

Or maybe they can send us some chili fish eggs. How about that?

Yeah, send it to our non existent po. Box.

That's right. In the spring when it warms up.

In the spring. Oh, last question. How concerned do we need to be on chili eggs? Freezing in the mail you already answered.

Very concerned. It's cold enough for water to freeze. The eggs will freeze.

Yeah.

I mean, is there any species that can survive potentially through freezing?

Not that I'm aware of.

That was what I was trying to.

Get at, but he's not. Maybe there's, like, an abnormal snowman killy fish or something.

He talked about the saber species. I just want the sabre tooth that had been frozen for years.

They were next to the woolly mammoth.

Never mind.

Before we leave, I would just like to say that the American Kelly Fish Association is planning to have their convention this year. I think it's in St. Louis, so keep an eye out on their website for that. Speakers have been announced and everything. It's going to be in June. I don't know the exact dates off top of my head, but hopefully Pandemic will clear up enough by then that the Aka will have their convention again this year. And that's the best place to get Killy Fish if you want to get interested in that.

And where will the poker table be? In the back left corner, in his.

Room, probably in hospitality room.

All right.

So is it all weekend event, a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or is it a weekend?

It is all weekend. Typically the festivities will kick off somewhere around 06:00 in the evening on Friday. Saturday morning is probably the most anticipated event, the fish room sale. That's where the breeders bring in the fish that they have to sell. They put their own price on it and they let the people go in and buy the Killy Fish off the table. The sooner you register for the convention, the lower your number is and the sooner you get into the fish sale room. And generally registration opens on New Year's Day, so hopefully it'll be the case again this year. A couple of years ago, I registered right after it was when the clock struck midnight in the central time zone and I went online and I was like, number 17. I went on right at midnight and I was number 17 to register. I was not happy. But get a low number. You got to get in there right after the clock strikes midnight.

And when that opens up, do you run into the room throwing elbows and tripping people?

They let people in like five at a time. What for? First round, you're allowed to take one bag. Second round, usually you're allowed to take two bags. And then after that, they usually open it up. It's a free for all.

I'd be punching people in the throat.

Just like Black Friday without COVID.

Like going to Walmart to get that TV for $99.

All right.

If you really want to mess with people, you could just write savor finn Kili Fish on a bunch of bags.

Of Pete Loss just driving.

Hey, we might have a money maker here. Don't tell anybody.

$40 a bag.

Well, again, Joel, thanks so much. And for the rest of you, we will catch you next week on the episode. Thanks, everyone.

Thank you.

Thanks, guys, for listening to the podcast. Please go to your favorite place where podcasts are found, whether it be spotify, itunes, stitcher, wherever they can be found, like subscribe. And make sure you get push notifications directly to your phone so you don't miss great content like this.

I never knew that a Minnesota accent could be so sexy until I heard adam's voice. Go frank yourself.

Don't you know that's my boy?

Don't you know?